New Delhi: Congress leader Digvijaya Singh credited party Vice President Rahul Gandhi for internal democracy and holding primaries to elect candidate for Lok Sabha elections. He also defended party's manifesto and various promises made by the party.
Here is the full transcript of the interview:
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's advocate. Have recent affairs
undermine Rahul Gandhi and does the Congress manifesto lack credibility. Those are the two
key issues I shall explore today with Congress General Secretary Digvijaya Singh. Mr
Digvijaya Singh, lets start with Rahul Gandhi. He's repeatedly said congress has done more
than any other party to tackle corruption. He sharply criticised the BJP for fielding
Yeddyurappa and Sriramulu. So when the Congress party fields Ashok Chavan, an accused in
the Adarsh case, surely that is compromising Rahul Gandhi's credibility and his views.
Digvijaya Singh: First of all Karan, lets get the facts correct. Yeddyurappa has been chargesheeted,
Karan Thapar: So has Ashok Chavan
Digvijaya Singh: One second, let me complete. And chargesheeted in a case of corruption. Number two Sriramulu is ofcourse not chargesheeted but closely associated with Reddy brothers who are in jail. As far Ashok Chavan is concerned, if you see the facts of the case, Adarsh Housing Society.
Karan Thapar:I will interrupt you there for one reason. You want to come on facts, I want to give you the facts. Adarsh Commission of enquiry indicted Ashok Chavan on two grounds. Firstly for approving extra floor space in return for two flats for relatives and secondly for approving the allocation of 40 per cent of the flats to civilians when the society was clearly meant for Kargil widows and defence personnel. Two serious indictments.
Digvijaya Singh:Karan, let me go on facts.
Karan Thapar: These are facts.
Digvijaya Singh: A minister usually approves the notes submitted by the secretary of the revenue. He was not the chief minister.
Karan Thapar: He was the revenue minister.
Digvijaya Singh: He was the revenue minister. Correct.
Karan Thapar: Later on he was the chief minister.
Digvijaya Singh: No but when the decision on Adarsh was taken he was not
Karan Thapar: So are you saying he is not responsible. You are passing the buck to revenue secretary?
Digvijaya Singh: One second. This is what I am saying. I have been a Chief Minister, I have been in a minister in government also. And Karan,
Karan Thapar: Mr Digvijay Singh, let me interrupt you once again. You want to go by facts, the CBI wanted to prosecute Ashok Chavan, the governor refused. When the CBI went to the court to request their permission to remove Ashok Chavan's name from the FIR report the court refused. That's been the position since January and it continues to be as of today. Which means today he is a chargesheeted man, his name appears in the first chargesheet and you have nominated a charge sheeted man despite the fact, Rahul Gandhi proudly says Congress has done more than any party to tackle corruption and here the party is letting him down.
Digvijaya Singh: Will you please allow me to answer? Mr Ashok Chavan, as far as he is concerned, I have also seen the papers, I also know the facts Adarsh housing society has flats which have been taken by Mr. Nitin Gadkari
Karan Thapar: Now that's of irrelevance.
Digvijaya Singh: One second one second, let me complete. Karan let me complete sir. Why are you interrupting so much today? You usually don't do that with me. Number 2 he has simply accepted the recommendation of the officers.
Karan Thapar: In which case, why was he removed as Chief Minister in 2010 if it was fitting to remove him, how can it be correct today to make him a Lok Sabha member. You are contradicting yourself.
Digvijaya Singh:This is what I am saying Karan. I have always held this view every man is innocent till proved guilty.
Karan Thapar: Are you saying it was a mistake to remove him as Chief
Minister?
Digvijaya Singh:This is a decision of the High Command which I would not like to challenge.
Karan Thapar: So the High Command tied itself up in contradictions. He is not fit to be chief minister but somehow he is fit to be Lok Sabha MP.
Digvijaya Singh: Because he has not been chargesheeted as yet.
Karan Thapar: He has been chargesheeted.
Digvijaya Singh:There is no case against him in the court.
Karan Thapar: Just a moment. The court would not allow CBI to remove his name from the FIR, they refused it. That is the position as of today. No appeal on that matter has yet been heard.
Digvijaya Singh: There is no case in which he has been chargesheeted that has been pending in the court today.
Karan Thapar: He has a chargesheet. It is pending in court. He is not on the second chargesheet, he is in the first chargesheet.
Digvijaya Singh:Let me complete then. Number 3, the UPA government has been the first government which has been able to enact Lokpal. One second.
Karan Thapar:Just a moment, let's not get in to the Lokpal. Now you are deflecting.
Digvijaya Singh:No no one second, its fighting corruption. You see your question is that Mr Rahul Gandhi says that no government has done so much to fight corruption as Congress party.
Karan Thapar:I want to come back.
Digvijaya Singh:Let me answer that.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you, this is not the only charge against Ashok Chavan. Ashok Chavan is also entangled in the paid news case and Election Commission says it is the biggest paid news case in the country.
Digvijaya Singh:Allow me to answer Karan. I am listing what action, I am just saying what Congress party has done.
Karan Thapar:Mr Digvijay Singh the question was not about what Congress has done, the question was whether
Digvijaya Singh:Of course it was, your question was Mr Rahul Gandhi says no government has done so much as congress party has done to fight corruption.
Karan Thapar: And therefore the second part of the question was by fielding Ashok Chavan, undermining Rahul Gandhi's claim, and you are undermining his credibility.
Digvijaya Singh:Let me answer the first question Karan Thapar. Please allow.
Karan Thapar: Go ahead.
Digvijay Singh: Please for God's sake don't interrupt. So number 1 we brought the Lokpal. Number 2 we have strengthen the money laundering act, we have amended the income tax act and the section 66 which does not allows the shell companies to sort of circulate. Number 4 we have brought in the whistle blower's act. Number 5 we have also brought act to check.
Karan Thapar: Ok, you have given me a check list of what you have done to believe you have done more.
Digvijaya Singh:If you want then 23 steps I can put it to you.
Karan Thapar: No no just a moment, Digvijaya ji let me come back to the key issue. The issue is this that by fielding a man like Ashok Chavan you are undermining Rahul Gandhi. And I will tell you why I have say it. Not only is he involved in Adarsh where he is chargesheeted not only is he involved in paid news scandal, which the election commission says is the biggest paid news scandal in the country, but there is something worse. When Suresh Kalmadi is denied a seat and its given to Ashok Chavan, the message is Ashok Chavan got it because he is a likely winner. And the message that comes from that is that winnability has triumphed over morals and ethics in Congress. That again is not an embarrassment to Rahul Gandhi? You would rather win with a tainted man than hold your head up high on the issue of morals. That's the second message.
Digvijaya Singh: Suresh Kalmadi is being chargesheeted, his case is being tried in the court. And there is no court case as yet.
Karan Thapar:The trial has begun and the chargesheet is there.
Digvijaya Singh:One second, Karan. We are going round and round in circles on this issue.
Karan Thapar: Because I am correcting your facts.
Digvijaya Singh:I am putting up facts before you. The fact is there is no current chargesheeted case against Ashok Chavan.
Karan Thapar:You are wrong on that but let me put this to you. You are really wrong on that but let me put this to you instead. Why did Sonia Gandhi jump in and answered the question at Wednesday's press conference and not let her son reply because she knew this would embarrass him. Sonia Gandhi as a protective mother realised that this question about Ashok Chavan made Rahul Gandhi's claims and vows look silly. She jumped in to protect her son.
Digvijaya Singh: She did not. She did not. The question was put to either Mrs Sonia Gandhi or Rahul Gandhi. She took the question.
Karan Thapar: Do you know why she did? That was even worse. She said that there was no law that prevented Ashok Chavan from standing. By the way, there is no law that prevents Yeddyurappa either. And by that one ill thought out answers Sonia Gandhi also collapsed the case you are making against the BJP on Yeddyurappa. So you lost on both counts. So you lost your own moral standing and you have undermined your case against Yeddyurappa.
Digvijaya Singh:Karan, my take on this is quite different. A man is innocent till proved guilty. But at the same time.
Karan Thapar: So you don't believe in the Caesar's wife's principle?
Digvijaya Singh: One second, there is a minister in Mr Modi's government called Mr Babu bhai Bhokaria who has been convicted for three years. And still continues with the party government.
Karan Thapar: I thought your claim was that you are better than the BJP, now you are comparing yourself with the BJP. Is the BJP setting your moral standards?
Digvijaya Singh:No, tell me Karan one Congressmen in position who has been convicted and yet allowed to continue in his position of power? One instance.
Karan Thapar: Let me tell you Yeddyurappa is not being convicted as yet.
Digvijaya Singh:This is what I am saying.
Karan Thapar: That's precisely the argument I am making. If you can object to you can't be hypocritical and say somehow Ashok Chavan is clean. Morality and ethics means that Congress candidates like Caesar's wife should be above suspicion. If the taint of suspicion lurks around them then clearly the claim that you are somehow clean and fielding the best isn't true. But lets leave this to the audience to judge. You put your case, I questioned it.
Digvijaya Singh: Karan, again I would like to go back, two minutes that I can prove in number of counts that may be more than twenty different counts on which the government has taken action more than any government in the preceding government on to fight corruption.
Karan Thapar:Let that be your boost. Let the audience judge whether by fielding Ashok Chavan you undermined your claims of probity, you have undermined Rahul Gandhi's claim that he has done more against corruption than anyone else, you have also undermined the process of your charge against Yeddyurappa. Lets leave that for the audience.
Digvijay Singh:Fine, ok.
Karan Thapar:Lets come to our second issue where once again Rahul Gandhi looks compromised. He says that those primaries were an important experiment because party workers and party activists have a right to choose their candidate. How then do you explain the fact that in Vadodara the man party workers chose Narendra Rawat, was replaced without any reference back to the people who elected him. How do you explain that you just replaced him without referring back to the very elect that chose him.
Digvijaya Singh:Mr Narendra Rawat, the DCC President, he opted out once Narendra Modi was declared the BJP candidate.
Karan Thapar:I fully accept that. That's not my question.
Digvijaya Singh:One second one second. Let me finish. When he withdrew himself so there was no time to hold primaries again.
Karan Thapar:Just a moment, that's a very bad argument because what you are saying is that you found an excuse to certainly supersede what Rahul Gandhi believed to be a fundamental right, the right of party workers to choose their candidate. You could have easily found an occasion to go back to them and you could have held a primary expeditiously; you could have taken five or ten days more to do so. There was no reason why you would had to hurry. What you did instead was imposed Madhusudan Mistry from Delhi.
Digvijaya Singh: Karan first of all you don't give credit to Congress party for initiation the process of primaries in this country, first time any party has done this in country. Even Mr Kejriwal who talks about referendum has not adopted the fundamentals of referendum while choosing candidates.
Karan Thapar: If you are so proud of the primaries, why did you not go with them with Narendra Rawat why did you impose to him from Delhi. Give those guys a chance to choose someone else.
Digvijaya Singh: I have already replied to you. There was no time we cannot waste time.
Karan Thapar: You have no time, primaries are waste of time.
Digvijaya Singh: No, we had no time left because he had to file his nomination.
Karan Thapar: You had a clear week in hand. You could have easily organised a primary within a week. These primaries are not American scale things. You barely have 30-40 people.
Digvijaya Singh: No its not that, there are more than 3000 people.
Karan Thapar: Oh just a moment, if have to make excuse you always can. But let me tell you consequence to it.
Digvijaya Singh: But why don't you give credit to Mr Rahul Gandhi for holding primaries?
Karan Thapar: Because I believe that the primaries are an important step, but the outcome in Vadodara has undermine the experiment. This undermining of experiment has undermined Rahul Gandhi. It's the undermining of Rahul Gandhi is what I'm concerned about.
Digvijaya Singh: Do you concede the fact that Congress is the first political party to hold primaries to name the candidates.
Karan Thapar: I concede the fact but I add a code that you have also undermine the experiment because you decided in the end to impose a man from Delhi and in doing so the message you sent to the country is that in the Congress party the high command is more important and internal democracy remains still warned.
Digvijaya Singh: Karan, let me tell you that ever since Rahul Gandhi has come in the internal democracy in Congress party has taken a front seat.
Karan Thapar: It hasn't, it bumped on the road and Narendra Rawat is the accident you could have avoided.
Digvijaya Singh: Students' wing, youth Congress. No political party has ever held elections for elected candidates in every Assembly segment of this country.
Karan Thapar: Let the audience once again judge whether your priority is justified or somehow belied by the way you handled Vadoara. Mr Digvijaya Singh lets come to your manifesto. Both in 2004 and 2009 your manifestos were dedicated to the aam aadmi. This time those two words are completely missing. Have you turned your back on aam aadmi or has the aam aadmi deserted you?
Digvijaya Singh See, the word aam aadmi, that word, has been usurped by the Aam Aadmi Party of Kejriwal.
Karan Thapar: So you want to say it has been stolen from you and you have lost your own property.
Digvijaya Singh Mr Karan Thapar, just look at the content and not only the name.
Karan Thapar: Alright I will happily come to the content, That's a challenge you are throwing me, I want to take up the content in the debate. But I just wanted to point out that your hold on aam aadmi must have been very tenuous if you can lose it to someone who steals it just eight months ago.
Digvijaya Singh Aam Aadmi Party, the word, aam aadmi has been taken up by a political party so we can't use it now.
Karan Thapar: But your hold on the aam aadmi was so small that the concept does suppose that name has lost as well.
Digvijaya Singh You are not going on facts Karan, these ten years Congress party has given maximum empowerment to aam aadmi.
Karan Thapar: Let me come to the challenge you threw, the contents of the manifesto. To begin with, what you doing is to recycle old unfulfilled promises when you promise Communal Violence Bill and when you re-promised Women Reservation Bill, these were promised in 2009 and in one instance even in 2004. If you have not fulfilled them it in ten years why should people believe that you will fulfill them if you are given five years more?
Digvijaya Singh First of all why do you forget that we have given Health for all to people, Right to Health is one of the major issues in the manifesto.
Karan Thapar: Is it your selling point?
Digvijaya Singh Let me finish. Right to housing is another major right which is given as a promise. As an act. Any person who doesn't have it can go to court and demand from the government. Number 3 when you talk about Women Reservation Bill and Communal Violence Bill - two issues you raised. On Women bill we don't have majority.
Karan Thapar: Just a moment, on Telangana, you pushed Telangana through if you were keen you could have pushed Women Reservation Bill too. If you were determined as you showed in Telangana.
Digvijaya Singh Karan, if the members of Parliament just walk out how can we?
Karan Thapar: That's what happened on Telangana?
Digvijaya Singh No, only six or seven did, there the whole House moved out.
Karan Thapar: Lets not look back, I want to take up your point about health. You held it up as a great offer to the Indian people. Let's actually examine how credible it is. You are promising the Right to Health premised on the fact that you are going to increase the expenditure on health to 3 per cent of GDP. The fact is that in the manifesto of 2004 you promised to extend expenditure of health to 3 per cent of GDP and on that occasion you added that it at the end of the decade it will be 5 per cent of GDP. The decade is over and do you know what the expenditure on health is? A miserable 1.5 per cent. So the premise on which you promised this is a premise unfulfilled. That's why I say that this promise lacks credibility.
Digvijaya Singh First of all you brought out two points one was Women Reservation and second Communal Violence Bill.
Karan Thapar: Lets come back to health now.
Digvijaya Singh No no why? You are setting an agenda which you are not asking. The Communal Violence Bill has been introduced and is with standing committee of Parliament now if House is not meeting what can we do?
Karan Thapar: Do you know when you promised that ten years back
Digvijaya Singh It has been put to Parliament if the Parliament has not worked what can be done?
Karan Thapar: A ten year delay is to blame on Parliament. Alright let the audience decide. Let me put you another reason perhaps the most classic reason people believe your manifesto lacks credibility. You are promising on page 35 an annual growth in manufacturing at 12 to 14 per cent. Do you know the average growth of manufacturing sector in last five years? It was 2.7 per cent. Do you know how much it was last year? Just 1 per cent. Do you know as the result in the last the share of manufacturing industry in last five years has actually shrunk it hasn't grown. That means seeing the track record of last five years who is going to believe that you are going to give the annual growth of 12-14 per cent every year?
Digvijaya Singh Will you allow me to answer?
Karan Thapar: Happily.
Digvijaya Singh With no interruption?
Karan Thapar: My lips are sealed and you have whole one minute before I end the interview.
Digvijaya Singh That's unlike Karan. See as far as the economic and manufacturing growth is concerned, these are issues of economics. And these are issues which are drafted by in consultation with Dr Manmohan Singh and other economists who have been framing this.
Karan Thapar: So he has to be blamed for these promises?
Digvijaya Singh No I am not economist I am a political person.
Karan Thapar: How fortunate, you have not to answer embarrassing questions?
Digvijaya Singh But the fact remains that in even adverse conditions India has remained the second fastest growing country in the world.
Karan Thapar: I'm afraid that's not true.
Digvijaya Singh It is true, only China is ahead of us.
Karan Thapar: There are years when Indonesia has been ahead of us, there are even such years when countries of Africa was ahead of us so lets not go into this.
Digvijaya Singh Karan I am talking about last ten years. We are the second fastest growing economy in the world. Our economy has grown from 600 billion dollars to two trillion dollars.
Karan Thapar: You have every right to end this interview with a boast. The audience will decide if your answers were genuine of fake. Under adverse questioning you have most energetic smile. Thank You.
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